The Synthesizerin' Bob Dylan
The Empire Burlesque Interviews #4&5: Vince Melamed & Richard Scher
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As far as I can figure out, Empire Burlesque was the first time synthesizer was played on a Bob Dylan record. And that oil-and-water-seeming mix describes a big part of the reason the album was so controversial. Synthesizer? On a Bob Dylan record???
So, for the fourth part in our weeklong interview series, I spoke to two of the synth players on Empire Burlesque. Though they played the same instrument (instruments plural, really, as several different keyboards and synths were employed), they ended up on the album in two very different ways.
The first, Vince Melamed, was brought in by bandleader Ira Ingber for the early sessions out in LA, playing live in the studio with Bob and the band. He appears on “Something’s Burning Baby” as well as a number of songs left on the cutting room floor that resurfaced later (most notably “Brownsville Girl”).
The second, Richard Scher, was brought in by mixer Arthur Baker to overdub synth parts in New York when the record was already nearly finished, to make it sound more contemporary. He appears on five tracks on Empire Burlesque, quite prominently on a song like “When the Night Comes Falling from the Sky.”
Vince Melamed—Early LA Sessions
How did you get brought in?
I had just gotten off the road with Jimmy Buffett. I knew Ira [Ingber], and I got a call from him. He said, “Hey, you wanna come to Bob Dylan’s house and rehearse? We’re not sure if it’s going to go anywhere past that.” I said, “Sure!”
So I talked to the road manager. He said, “What do you need?” I said, “Hammond B3 and I’ll bring my own [synthesizers], probably a Prophet 5 and a DX7.” And that was it.
Take me through day one of the rehearsals. What do you remember?
Okay, so you go to his house. There’s a guest area, which is like his music room or something. We get there, let’s say, at 12. Of course, we don’t see him until 2. So we’re just hanging out. This would have been me and Ira and Carl Sealove [bass] and Don Heffington on drums.
Then finally he comes in. Walks in, kind of scratches his head, picks up a guitar, and just starts playing. Doesn’t say a word to us. So we start playing with him. After maybe 20 minutes of jamming, the first thing he ever said to us was, “Any of you guys ever been sued for plagiarism?”
We went, “Uh no, I don’t think so…” He goes, “I am. I wrote this song called ‘Blowin’ in the Wind…’” I felt like going, “Oh, really, Bob? How does it go? I’ve never heard it.” [laughs]
That was the first words he ever spoke to us.
Are you familiar with Cyrano de Bergerac? It was a famous play like 300 years ago. He was a guy with a big, long nose that went out further than Pinocchio’s. And if anyone was looking at his nose, he would start, “Do you notice my nose? Is it offensive?” You know, like Dylan does in Dont Look Back, where he’d go off on a five-minute tirade. So, in the beginning, I was very, very shy. Because he would say something like that to Ira: “Did you like that last take?” And Ira would go, “yeah.” He’d go, “I didn’t like it.”
Like a trap.
Yeah. Contradictory. He’s a contrarian, he’s just playing, but you never know if he is or not. That was an intimidation for me.
So what are you playing? Are they songs? Are they covers? Are they instrumentals?
The very first thing, when he came in two hours late, I think it was just a jam. Then two, three hours in, he said, “Okay, suppose this is a song…” He starts playing and we just go along with it. You have to think fast and in some ways that’s good.
That was for three weeks. He’d always say, “Can you come back tomorrow?” But we already knew what the schedule was, which days were going to be on and off, so we’d go, “Sure, Bob, I can make it.”
Three weeks is a long time. How did it evolve?
We got more comfortable. He talked to Ira, because Ira is also from Minnesota originally. He’d go, “Hey, Ira, ever hear of the so-and-so club?”
Then we didn’t hear from him. We figured, “Okay, I guess he’s moved on to something else.” Then we got a call to show up at Cherokee, and that’s when we started doing the sessions.
At this point, after three weeks of rehearsals, do you have a sense of what you’re going to record in the studio?
No. Of course, since I knew most albums up to Infidels—and I’m a big Blonde on Blonde fan—I kind of knew what keyboard and expected that kind of playing. I brought my Prophet synthesizer. “Something’s Burning,” that’s a Prophet, as well as organ.
I was in Bobby Womack’s band for two years. I was a bandleader there, and I learned, in R&B, how to listen to other players. How it’s not the notes you play but what you don’t play. And all those guys in the room at that time were professionals. So we just learned to listen to each other, not to get in each other’s way, and most of all watch the boss.
So you get the call, you go to sessions at Cherokee, what happens next?
Bob shows up. We played the song that he wrote with Sam Shepard. Originally it was called “Danville Girl.” Then they had to change it to “Brownsville Girl” because there was another “Danville Girl” song. That “New Danville Girl” that you hear on Springtime in New York is the same take just without all the bullshit. I can finally hear myself.
I really like Empire Burlesque, but it has come into a fair amount of criticism for exactly what you’re talking about— Are you an Empire Burlesque skeptic yourself? You just made a noise when I said I liked it.
I hated the sound. It was so ’80s. We used to call it “cocaine mixes.” You know, “I can’t hear the highs,” boosting ‘em up. It’s a very harsh ’80s-sounding album.
Listen, he was a trip. There’s a synthesizer company, Roland. In the very early days, they had these little tiny drum machines, and they also had a thing called a synth bass. It was kind of like this long box, and you had buttons to do the 12-tone scale. He came in with the Roland and said, “I got this bass machine!”
So how much of what you’re recording is live?
Most of it is everyone in the room. Maybe if someone made such a blatant error but Bob liked a take, we might do a fix or something. Basically us playing at the same time, which was going to be a dead thing about three years after that.
Is Bob singing live with you all as well?
Bob always sang when we tracked. He would be in the isolation booth where the piano was.
Don Heffington was great because he was this real song drummer. When we were doing “Danville Girl,” we never knew when the chorus was going to come. And once or twice in that take, he was the one that led into the chorus. Because they were all just, you know, “I just remember this movie starring Gregory Peck…” You know, going on and on.
Spoken word, almost.
Spoken word. So once or twice, without Bob’s direction—because we couldn’t really see him when he’s in that piano room—Heffington would just do bah-bah-bah-bah drum fills into “Danville girl…”
Like, “Time for the chorus. Let’s go.”
Yeah, and God bless him because we didn’t know if we were going to just keep doing verses into verses.
I was just so starstruck. I had played with the Eagles, Buffett, I even did a session with David Bowie, but this was my idol. I really stayed on my p’s and q’s.
So let’s touch base on a few of these other songs, anything you remember about recording them. “Something’s Burning Baby,” you’re on that one.
There are two keyboard parts on there. There’s a Prophet 5, which sounds like horns, but is really synth. And then there’s organs. I believe that I did the Prophet first, and then I came back and put organs floating in and out.
I wonder if this is the first time there was synth on a Bob Dylan record.
Good point. I’d think he’d be shunning synthesizers.
Did he request synth, or were you picking what keyboard to play on what song?
I was picking. I just thought, “I can’t play organ on every song, and he’s in the piano room.” And you don’t want to play DX7, because that’s early digital synth, and there’s nothing very organic-sounding. So I just went, “Let’s do kind of a horn thing,” and it worked. He liked it.
You literally couldn’t play piano for the simple reason that he was using that room to sing?
Yeah. He was there, and a girl named Maddie [Madelyn Quebec] was singing background. She had the toughest job because with all of these songs, even when we recorded them, we don’t know how the song goes. And I don’t think she knew the lyrics beforehand, so she is a lot of the times like a nanosecond behind him, just looking at his mouth, watching it. You’re generally not going to get a second pass with him, you know?
I was really excited because I had heard the album Infidels, the album before Empire Burlesque, and I thought, “Wow!” But then I realized that Mark Knopfler was producing it, and it was a little more structured.
Let’s talk “Emotionally Yours.” You’re not on the album version, but you are on the outtake version.
I remember Maddie being in the room singing with him. I just put very, very minor background organ stuff. You have to be careful with each song that you just don’t try to play too much, or take away from what he’s singing or phrasing.
It’s a prominent part of the song though. Not flashy, but I think of it sounding like a church song, the vocals and organ.
What I was doing was Procol Harum kind of organ on that song. And that was really taken from a piece by Bach in 1660. That’s where “Whiter Shade of Pale” was stolen from, the chord progression. So I just kind of did what Matthew Fisher, the original organ player, did.
For any of these songs, is it one or two takes or a dozen takes?
I don’t think he has the patience to do a dozen takes. He’s very, very improvisational. He loses interest. I don’t recall on any of these songs him changing the feel, like from straight to swing or shuffle. Generally, everyone was really tuned in. Although he ended up doing many versions of those songs with different players.
This was only eight months after he got off the road with that Mick Taylor and my good friend Gregg Sutton. I wondered, “How come he’s not using these guys?” So he was searching for something, but he didn’t have a Knopfler with him to hold his hand, guide him through stuff.
Maybe he’s trying to outrun time, and he just wants to keep changing, and he figures if he keeps changing, he’ll cheat time. He’ll cheat the Grim Reaper or something. I don’t know. I admire him for constantly changing.
To some degree, that’s why I like Empire Burlesque more than some people. I’m not going to claim it’s better than Blonde on Blonde or a dozen other albums, but it’s different. It’s certainly better than Knocked Out Loaded.
It seems like Knocked Out Loaded is all just scatterbrained. You know, it’s not a real album, a continuous thing. I never listen to it.
“Brownsville Girl” looms large, but after that…
I think probably around that period of time he was losing the spirit, you know?
I got a gold record, because they put “Brownsville Girl” on Greatest Hits Volume 3. That’s neat to have a Bob Dylan gold record.
Richard Scher—Late NYC Overdubs
How did you get involved in the project? Through Arthur Baker?
Definitely. I had been working with Arthur for a few years at that point. I did most of his keyboard overdubs as part of his remixes. That’s what was happening in the mid-’80s, these remix guys. I worked with Jellybean a lot too. I was one of the go-to keyboard guys.
Arthur was telling me about the Springsteen and the Cyndi Lauper ones. Were you involved in those?
I did a million of them. I don’t even remember them all. I just did a whole bunch of additional-production overdubs with him, and Bob was one of those, so I took that on. I think it was just a couple of days in the studio.
Frankly, my reaction to the whole project was a little bit of hesitation, only in that a lot of the remix stuff we did was big pop records to begin with. The idea of doing the stuff that Arthur and I were doing, big snare and synth lines and whatever the in-fashion stuff was—my first reaction was, “Really? We’re going to do that on a Bob Dylan record?” I was in awe of Bob’s early records. I felt almost mildly embarrassed to be involved.
Occasionally I would go to do a session and someone would say, “You know that riff that was in such-and-such record? Bite that one.” They’d sing it to me. I’d, “Oh yeah, I did that one.” So those licks were going around, but they seemed a little bit odd for a Dylan record. But that’s what I did.
Was Bob there for the overdubs?
Bob was there. He must have been, because I have pictures of him and me.
At one point, I remember I was using a DX7 [synthesizer]. It had a breath-controller attachment. It was a way to trigger attacks with breath. You could simulate horn parts. So I was blowing into it, and I remember Bob saying to Arthur, “What’s he doing there?” Arthur said, “ I don’t know either.” Bob said, “Rich, what are you doing?” I said, “I’m playing these horn lines.” He said, “Okay…”
The other recollection I had was Bob doing a guitar overdub. Bob was in the studio playing. Arthur said, “Bob’s guitar is out of tune.” I said, “I know.” He said, “Well, go fix it.” I said, “Nope! Not gonna do that.” Bob’s going to tune his guitar as he sees fit.
You didn’t want to be the one to go tell him?
I said, “He’s gotten this far with however he’s tuned. I’m just going to leave it alone.”
I listened to the album a couple of days ago. I checked out the tracks that I was listed on. I didn’t hear much that I said, “Oh, yeah, I remember that one.” Either they got mixed way down, or I’m not sure to what extent stuff got used, because I wasn’t there for all the remix sessions.
I did the same exercise you did, listening to the songs you’re credited on this morning. One where you sound very prominent is “When the Night Comes Falling from the Sky.” You’re the only person credited on synth, so it must be you.
I assume it is. I made a lot of records in the ’80s. There was just so much stuff we were laying down. I got out of the business in the mid-’90s, and I haven’t been involved at all. It was like a previous lifetime. Frankly, I listen to those things, and occasionally I say, “What the hell was that?”
When you were doing these overdubs, were there other musicians in there playing with you, or was it all eyes on you?
I think it was just me. It was remix-type overdubs. Certainly, the basics were down. Arthur was brought in as one of these hot remix guys that was happening at the time, to give the record a more contemporary edge.
Is it intimidating playing while Bob Dylan is standing there staring at you? Usually when I interview musicians, everyone’s playing together, including him.
Not really, because I ended up interfacing with a lot of those characters. I’ve had encounters with Jagger and a bunch of others. People say, “Weren’t you intimidated?” I say no. I always wanted to do what was right for a record.
When the album came out, I think the public reaction in a way mirrored your initial reaction. A lot of people were like, “Really? Synths on a Bob Dylan record?”
Exactly. Which was the reason why I probably shrunk away from it. I didn’t really want to say, “Hey, I worked on that album!” At the time, I thought it was Bob’s least successful album. That was the impression I had, as far as sales.
I was into the early Bob Dylan thing. Bob as a poet who sings rather than Bob as a rock-and-roller—that was my particular orientation. My connection with rock was a bit shaky. I was more of a folk and jazz person. So I couldn’t compare Empire Burlesque to a bunch of his other non-acoustic albums. I know its reputation is, “Why’d they put that crazy stuff on the record?”
And it turns out the guy putting the crazy stuff on was reluctant himself.
Yeah, just on principle. I was much less reluctant with other artists who I thought had more flexibility. Bob had his own unique spirit and sound, so the idea of adding—but I guess Bob wanted it. I assume it was his idea, or he supported it.
He was the producer, after all.
How did Bob react to what came out of it at all?
The way I’ve heard various people describe it to me is that the ’80s were Bob’s low point commercially. MTV’s coming along, and he’s wondering, “How do you get on MTV? How do you get younger people to listen?” Arthur was talking about how the reputation of Empire Burlesque has gone in waves. Now I see more enthusiasm for Empire Burlesque than I used to.
It might be connected to the idea that, all of a sudden, analog synths are coming back. Some of the synths that I literally threw away 30 years ago now are the bomb. Everyone wants to have some crazy old analog thing that you could readily accomplish with a $40 program. It’s like vinyl. Maybe people are more receptive to inappropriate synthesized overdubs on Bob Dylan records that they might have been 40 years ago.
Were you getting a lot of instruction from either Bob or Arthur, or were you fairly free in a situation like that to just play what you felt?
I think it was whatever I came up with. That’s what I specialized in, just coming up with ideas. I don’t remember hearing anything directly from Bob. He was circumspect, to say the least. He might’ve been a bit quizzical now and then of something I was doing, but I don’t recall him requesting or objecting to anything. I think the vibe was like, “Let’s see what these guys can come up with.”
I hear a few things [I played on the album]. I think a lot of it were long pads. Not so much upfront dance licks. Because I did a zillion of those for dance remix records. My first success in the business was with 12-inch R&B dance records in New York. A lot of that was really aggressive synth stuff. Bob’s stuff I’m pretty sure was more laid-back pads, synthesized horns, and string pads. There’s nothing I hear that jumps out as one of the typical licks I did for all my electrofunk records.
You mentioned the DX7. Do you remember any other instruments you used on this album?
I had a Moog called a Memorymoog. I got it in '81. It was a MIDI keyboard that I had altered and retrofitted. If I did any Rhodes overdubs, I’m sure it was something they had in the studio. I didn’t do any drum machine overdubs. Back then, the drum machines were still really developing.
I listened to the album. To me it doesn’t sound nearly as aggressive as I thought at the time. There’s bigger snares and kicks than Bob would’ve had in previous records. Did they do any 12-inch remixes out of that?
Arthur said he made one, but the record label canned it.
That was his specialty. The stuff that we did on records usually was really to hype them up big time. That’s why people came to Arthur and me and some of the overdub guys. The idea was to take it someplace else. Some people liked it; some people didn’t. We did a lot of records and we had a great time.
Thanks to Vince and Rich for sharing their memories! Bonus thanks to Michael Simmons for connecting me with Vince and Ira a few days ago.
Ray. Through these interviews I’ve begun to realize the similarities that these pro musicians experienced in their respective memories about working with Dylan though I can’t quite put my finger on it. It’s something beyond respect…
Great interviews! I wish Bob and the current band would come out one day on the Outlaw tour and play rearranged versions of songs rarely played from Empire, Knocked Out Loaded and Down In The Groove. Played in a new setting, minus synths, outside their original production, I bet would lend newfound respect to those songs.